Monday, March 24, 2008

Life!

Time to get controversial! This is my blog, so here comes my opinion.

This weekend, as we celebrated Easter, I was inspired again by Jesus rising from the dead! How amazing! He defeated death with a victorious Life!

I’ve been in dialogs with a few people recently about this issue of LIFE. Life is the opposite of Death. Life was in the Garden, Death was the result of the fall. We are Dead in our sins but are made Alive in Christ. God declared that we should not Murder, and Christ came that we might have Life!

So as I look to this election, there is no way I can vote for anyone who opposes Life. Yes, there are many, many others issues. However, they pale in comparison to the issue of Life. Abortion, Partial Birth Abortion, the Morning After Pill, Euthanasia…

Why does the issue of whether or not every poor child has health insurance matter if we don’t value every child? Why do we want to push for tax cuts for seniors and the middle class when we don’t even value the lives of the older people in our society? Why are we so adamant to “bring our sons home” when we don’t even value the 3,000 sons that are killed every day by abortion in the US, a number greater than the tragic 2819 who died on 9/11?

The main arguments I’ve heard recently:

1. “We shouldn’t impose our moral standards on those who believe differently.”
If we are opposed to imposing Biblical Mandates on non-believers, where do we draw the line? Why not allow everything from drugs, prostitution, incest, rape, armed robbery, cheating on taxes, sexual molestation... Should we allow all of that and not impose our morals on people? Do we want to live in a country where it's ok to do what we want with no moral standard? There has to be a standard.

I like living in a place where there is no porn on PBS and Billboards have decency restrictions. Men cannot walk around naked and G moves can't have certain cuss words. Child Porn is prosecuted and Sexual movies are placed behind a wall at the movie store. It's illegal to come into my home and take my stuff, the bank can't run off with my money, and motorists are required to stop at stop signs. Those are all "imposed morals" that our country agrees with, for now.

So how far should we go?

As far as the law allows, as far as the majority allows. We are a government of the people and for the people. As long as the majority believes that life is important, I say we vote to make that a priority! It's our right, our vote, our choice. To not do so is to give in.

2. “Making abortion illegal does not express Christ's love to the world.”

Could we have loved our country out of slavery? Or was that an issue worth fighting for?

Love women who've had an abortion? Yes! But love the issue away? No.

3. “There are other moral issues to think about.”

Yes, there are other moral issues. Life is full of them. Like don't cheat on your taxes and don't spend more than you make. But some definitely make more of an impact than others.

Presidents can do little to change the economy, but they can elect judges who rule in favor of not breaking the "Thou Shalt Not Murder" commandment. If we believe that life begins at conception, then there is just one issue that stands far above the others. 3000 people murdered each day. Over 1,000,000 each year. Less than one percent is from the exploited reason of rape.

The issues runs even deeper still. The Born Alive Infants Protection Act, which Barak Obama opposed, tried to keep people from going even further, killing a baby that has amazingly survived an abortion. This isn’t a question of “when is a baby a baby,” this is about a baby that was alive and well, but not wanted, and is therefore murdered. And allowing Partial Birth Abortions of late-term pregnancies where the children are potential genetically imperfect shows that only full-term, perfect children are wanted by some people in this country. That's a very powerful statement!

For that reason, I have prioritized the issues. It is not up to us to decide who is or isn’t wanted in this world. If it were, murder would be as commonplace as coveting your neighbor’s car.

If you think there's nothing wrong with abortions and euthanasia, fine. Vote accordingly. We have that right. But for me, I’m voting for a president who supports LIFE. And I pray that those who agree with me do the same.

27 comments:

Anonymous said...

I mean this question sincerely, not snidely, but what about the death penalty? I'm always curious about the position of those who support life on this issue.

REM said...

To the previous Mr/Ms. Shadow (Get a name so you won't be called one anymore:):
The author of this blog may/may not agree with me, but I don't think you care about her position on the death penalty. Her point is that there are 3,000 undesired death penalties a day being imposed on young, law abiding and unincarcerated Americans who cannot hope a governor will pardon them. And yet, you want to know the opinion of Becky on the overplayed card of the death penalty as it compares to her stance on the avalanche of abortion? You may be sincere person, but your question just isn't.

Becky said...

Thanks! :)

Lindsay said...

Anonymous,

If you're not satisfied with this response which really only skirts the issue, and if you are indeed looking for TRUTH in response to your question, hop on over to my blog!

It's a good question, deserving of a good answer - the simple one being, in one case you are protecting the life of the innocent; in the other, demanding payment from the guilty.

REM said...

Hello, Lindsay. Couple things:

1. The capital punishment inquiry is a permanent remora attached to the anti-abortionist cause. It’s been repeated beyond count and has been dealt with before, by more than one. See:
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5164
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom04.ii.x.vi.html
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-A-13.htm
http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/1977CapitalPunishment.htm

It is no mystery as to why this question reappears in this context or whether there is intent to ignore, forget, or reask again, regardless of thorough answers. (However, this could be a rare exception and I am glad you desire to field it.)

2. Although I will fail at doing it full justice, Scripture teaches us that some human questions are legit (Romans 7:24, Acts 16:30, Acts 8:30-31) and others are sneakier (Matthew 21:23, Genesis 3:1, Genesis 4:9, Luke 10:29). I think there is evidence that anon’s question leans toward the latter and that is where we probably disagree.

Say hey to Brian and I hope things are going well in his business and your home. Take care.

Clint Johnson said...

I feel I must respond when you say "If we believe that life begins at conception, then there is just one issue that stands far above the others. 3000 people murdered each day. Over 1,000,000 each year. Less than one percent is from the exploited reason of rape."

I find it difficult to believe that you consider a person present the instant a sperm touches an egg.

You mention the Morning After Pill as being a major issue. I assure you that the fertilized egg feels absolutely no pain when the pregnancy is ended the next morning.

While you focus on the "murder" of tiny blastocysts I am more bothered by the abuse and neglect of infants. Check out this recent study that shows 1 in 50 infants suffers abuse http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23937497.

I believe that there would be much less suffering in the world if all pregnancies were planned. Many Christians want abstinence-only sex education taught so that teens do now have the information that they need. Studies have found that students who have abstinence-only sex education actually have sex sooner than students who have comprehensive sex education.

Abortion is one of the most difficult issues there is, but considering a soul present at the instant of conception does nothing to help sort out the issue.

Ideally, there would never be an abortion, because people who were not ready to have a baby would use birth control and it would always work. That is not reality. I believe that it is better to end a pregnancy early on than to force people to have children when they do not want to.

The bottom line is that I do not consider a first trimester abortion to be murder. I want to lower the amount of suffering in the world by making sure that every baby is wanted and will be cared for.

I would love to discuss this issue with you further. Please feel free to email me.

MaryContrary said...

I get so sick of the sex education defenders daring to say they're giving kids the "information they need". Need for what? To avoid what?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23574940/
Your sex ed isn't working! You know why? Because you purposefully and intentionally stifle the most important element of sex ed.
"Don't, until you're married."

Becky said...

Hi Clint! I hope you receive this, because I don't have your email to reply to.

I'll highlight a few of my thoughts from your post.

1. Planned Vs Unplanned. I believe all pregnancies are planned - by God. He is the author of life (Acts 3:15). He is in control of all things. So whether a person wanted the baby or not, she did "baby making" activities and nature ran its course - creating new life. So planned or unplanned doesn't matter. It has happened.

2. I believe life begins at conception. An egg is just an egg until it is fertilized. Then is is new life. There is no way to draw a line in the sand by using arbitrary numbers or dates that make people feel more comfortable with their abortion choices.

I had a miscarriage at 10 weeks. I caught the baby, opened the sack, and looked inside. There was a baby with arms and legs and a head. I will see this baby again in Heaven. God won't ask "Were you a first trimester baby or second?"

As it is, birth control isn't an answer because I believe hormone-based pills are an abortificant due to the fact that they keep fertilized eggs (babies, life) from implanting. (Yes, women still occasionally ovulate while on the pill.)

I agree that child abuse is sad and horrible. But killing the lives isn't helping the situation.

I can see your point in your statement, "I want to lower the amount of suffering in the world by making sure that every baby is wanted and will be cared for."

Of course I feel the same way! I wish that every person thought responsibly before they had sex. Unfortunately, that is not going to happen. And murdering every child who isn't wanted isn't the way to stop child abuse. It simply spreads it.

When abortion is the answer to child abuse, there is no intervention that can be done for the child. (foster care, adoption, shelter, church programs) The answer is made for them. In essence, it is like saying, "You have a chance of being abused because you aren't wanted. So we're going to keep you from having the chance to live."

Clint Johnson said...

Becky,

I got your response. Will you please email me at cjohnson30@gmail.com so I can email you? Just let me know it is Becky from the blog and I will reply via email.

I think it will be easier to talk back and forth over email.

Thanks,

Clint

Lindsay said...

What's the matter clint, you don't want anyone else helping becky out?

don't want to publicly expose your flawed worldview?

I'd encourage you, Becky, to keep the debate on the blog forum where he will be held publicly accountable!

Clint Johnson said...

I have no problem posting my reply here.

I think everyone can agree that it would be wonderful if every pregnancy was planned by responsible parents who are ready and have the resources to raise a healthy, well-adjusted child.

Unfortunately, that is not the case. I try to base my opinion regarding abortion on the suffering or lack of suffering that occurs. Does a 6 weeks old fetus that is aborted suffer? I believe that it does not. If the pregnancy continues and a woman has an unwanted baby, the chances of that baby suffering are much higher than if the pregnancy had been planned. Animals can feel pain much more than a 6 week old fetus.

Becky says that God is in control of all things. It sounds like she does not believe we have free will. Is God in control of natural disasters that kill thousands of people or is he just in control of the good things that happen?

Becky mentions keeping a potential human from having the chance to live. Every time a woman avoids getting pregnant she is depriving a possible child the chance to live. Should we force woman to have as many babies as humanly possible? I don't think so.

Abortion is an extremely difficult question, but claiming that a fertilized egg must be protected at all costs is wrong.

Polls have found that most people believe a woman and her doctor should have the right to end a pregnancy in the first trimester.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/22/opinion/polls/main537570.shtml


Check out this article about when Pro-Life women choose to have abortions.
http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

Dani said...

First of all, for Anonymous regarding the death penalty - Are you really that retarded to not know the difference between killing an innocent unborn baby and putting a convicted criminal to death? If you sincerely want to know, just think about the difference for half a second - GUILTY vs. INNOCENT.

---------------------------

Clint -

When a woman is pregnant, i.e. has a fertilized egg in her womb, what is the species she is carrying inside her?

A)-Human? B)-Reptile? C)-I don't know?

Is that species:

A)-Alive? B)-Dead? C)-I don't know?

On what authority do you have to determine when a living human being should die? Millions of children are suffering all over the world - shall we just murder them all to put them out of their misery?

Clint Johnson said...

Dani,

What if somehow there was a fertilized egg that would stay in it's current state and would not further develop? What rights should that fertilized egg have? If that was your egg and someone asked you how many children you have would you include the frozen-in-time fertilized egg in your count?

Determining exactly when a fertilized egg becomes a human is an impossible task. I do not know exactly when we should say the fertilized egg now has all the rights of a fully developed human being. I certainly do not believe that a fertilized egg is a person.

Do you think all abortions should be illegal? Did you read the article about the pro-life women having abortions? They are amazingly hypocritical.

Lindsay said...

You didn't answer the question. So, what is your answer? 'I don't know'?

You are presenting a straw man argument.

I will answer your question, and I know Dani will conquer - yes, every abortion should be illegal. Every single one, regardless of whether or not the father is a criminal, or the mother will some day be abusive, or the baby is retarded or disabled in some way. Abortion is murder, regardless of who the child is, or how old.

Unwanted pregnancies happen, and there are THOUSANDS of couples out there waiting to adopt!

Now, please answer Dani's question.

Dani said...

Clint - Were you going to have the courtesy to answer my questions, or shall I assume that since you dodged them and redirected questions to me that you are unable to provide an adequate answer?

What if somehow there was a fertilized egg that would stay in it's current state and would not further develop? What rights should that fertilized egg have?

You mean like a frozen embryo? It should have the right to be implanted into a woman's womb and carried until it is a fully developed human being. Thousands of fertilized eggs have been given life. Check this out => Snowflake Adoption

If that was your egg and someone asked you how many children you have would you include the frozen-in-time fertilized egg in your count?

Yes.

Determining exactly when a fertilized egg becomes a human is an impossible task.

Only for willfully ignorant people like you. Science text books, however, define life at the moment of conception. Look it up for yourself. Any rationally thinking person knows this! At any point in a woman's pregnancy, people KNOW that it is a living baby inside her womb - otherwise she would not be pregnant!

I certainly do not believe that a fertilized egg is a person.

Well, you were once a fertilized egg - imagine if your mother decided to terminate her pregnancy - you would never became a "person."

Do you think all abortions should be illegal?

Yes, of course. Even in the case of rape and incest! You should not punish a child with death just because the father is a criminal. Rapists and child molesters should be swiftly and painfully executed!

Did you read the article about the pro-life women having abortions?

No I didn't and I don't care to either. Women who have abortions can NOT be pro-life. Like you said: They are amazingly hypocritical.

------------

Thanks Lindsay! You rock!

Clint Johnson said...

Dani,

Since you did not provide a fourth category of "other" I chose not to respond.

How would you answer this question:

When you scratch your nose and skin cells fall off, what is the species of the skin cells on the ground?

A)-Human? B)-Reptile? C)-I don't know?

A fertilized egg has the potential to become a human being. But a fertilized egg is NOT a human being.

I am greatly offended by this paragraph:

Only for willfully ignorant people like you. Science text books, however, define life at the moment of conception. Look it up for yourself. Any rationally thinking person knows this! At any point in a woman's pregnancy, people KNOW that it is a living baby inside her womb - otherwise she would not be pregnant!

The only reason there is controversy over abortion is because people disagree on when exactly an embryo becomes a human being. Pro-Choice people do not believe that a 1st trimester abortion is murder.

If my mother had terminated me in the womb, I would have had no idea! That is the whole point. An embryo has no awareness that it exists. It feels no pain.

What do you think about early miscarriages? Are they equivalent to losing a baby? According to this web site early miscarriages are very common. My wife had an early miscarriage at 6 weeks. We also had a son stillborn at 23 weeks. The loss at 6 weeks was sad, but in no way compared to having a son stillborn at 23 weeks. Would both losses be equal to you?


I think we will have to agree to disagree. I just hope that Roe vs. Wade is not overturned. That would lead to so much suffering.

Dani said...

Clint -
Since you did not provide a fourth category of "other" I chose not to respond.

So you can’t come up with a logical answer? Either human beings produce other human beings, or they don’t. It's simple, really! What’s the problem – did you go to public school or something?

How would you answer this question:

When you scratch your nose and skin cells fall off, what is the species of the skin cells on the ground?


Are you seriously that much of a moron to compare a “potential” human being to dry skin cells?

Maybe if you weren’t so willfully ignorant you wouldn't be so “greatly offended”?

The only reason there is controversy over abortion is because people disagree on when exactly an embryo becomes a human being. Pro-Choice people do not believe that a 1st trimester abortion is murder.

Naturally pro-choice people do not believe that a 1st trimester abortion is murder because they are so self-absorbed in their own wickedness they would never admit the TRUTH! Like I said – if it’s not really a baby, then the woman is not really pregnant!

What do you think about early miscarriages? Are they equivalent to losing a baby?

As you know, all miscarriages are devastating, (maybe more so at a later date) but people who suffer the loss grieve because they lost a real life baby, not a clump of tissue.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Nope, don’t think so. I will only agree that you are dead wrong, I disagree with your warped morality, and you seriously need to REPENT!

I just hope that Roe vs. Wade is not overturned.

Not if we have anything to do with it => Colorado Personhood Amendment!

If we have our way, ultimately abortion will be a capital crime like it should be!

That would lead to so much suffering.

What suffering? Oh, you mean the 4,000 innocent babies EACH DAY in America who have their arms and legs ripped off limb from limb, and their tiny skulls crushed into pieces right before they are tossed into the garbage all by the “choice” of the mother?

Gotcha!

Clint Johnson said...

Dani,

I understand that you are angry, because you consider any abortion to be murder, but I will not talk to someone who communicates in such rude and disrespectful ways.

Lindsay said...

Coward's way out.

Maybe you'll atleast mull over what Dani is saying (eh hem...the TRUTH) while you're licking your wounds.

Lindsay said...

Becky says that God is in control of all things. It sounds like she does not believe we have free will. Is God in control of natural disasters that kill thousands of people or is he just in control of the good things that happen?



I am glad you picked up on that, I was going to point that out, too.

Actually, no. God is not in control of all these things, and he is not on both sides of good and evil. He does not plan horrible events (such as rape) in some twisted way of making something good come of it. A pregnancy resulting from rape is just, that - a pregnancy. It is not some backward idea of a cosmic killjoy God trying to 'glorify himself' from the evil that happened. God is not glorified by rape. He is grieved and angered by it.

Can good come of a rape resulting in pregnancy? Yes, if the victim is obedient to God and honors him with her decisions and actions to it (such as offering the child for adoption rather than killing it). But God did not PLAN for a woman to be raped so that he could be glorified. That is twisted, superstitious thinking.

We do have free will. We can choose to love God and do what pleases Him, or not. That is our choice. Natural disasters, disease and other 'natural' suffering are a result of the fact that we live in a fallen/cursed world that is slowly dying.

Becky said...

Well, as this is my blog, I feel I should probably jump in here! It’s been pretty exciting!

For starters, I agree that we all need to make sure we speak with respect and love. A review of Ephesians 4:

“Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouth, but only what is beneficial for building OTHERS up according to their needs that it might benefit those who listen.”

Phrases like these do not build others up or show the love of Christ: “You must be retarded,” “held publicly accountable for flawed worldview,” “willfully ignorant people like you,” “A rationally thinking person knows this,” “Did you go to public school or something?” “Are you seriously that much of a moron?” “dead wrong… warped mentality,” and calling people cowards, twisted, and superstitious.

Second, I am no theologian, but I will answer the question about the Sovereignty of God. To begin, the point I was making is that God is the Author of Life. So if a baby is conceived after a rape, God planned that. He planned every life.

Some starting questions:

If God is not in control, who is? If God does not plan and use evil for His purposes, then why doesn’t he stop it? Is He not powerful enough to stop the evil? Is sin and the fall and “cause and effect” more powerful than God?
I disagree with Lindsay, and other open-theists, on the supremacy of God. It is a tricky line, and I’m not even exactly sure where I fall, but it is an area where I want to see the whole of scripture, and not just support what makes me most comfortable.

Lindsay mentioned that “God does not plan horrible events (such as rape) in some twisted way of making something good come of it.”

I would like you to consider: The Flood, The 10 Plagues, The Hail Storm (Joshua 10:11), Israel’s slavery as a punishment, wandering in the wilderness, The Fiery Furnace, Ananias and Saphira, Judas’s Betrayal, Paul’s imprisonment, The Death of Jesus…

Now consider these passages:

Isaiah 46:11b regarding his use of the pagan King Cyrus, “I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.”

Psalm 135:6 states, “The Lord does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and in their depths.”

Isaiah 46:9-10; “Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: my purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.”

Romans 9:15 “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

John 6:65b “…no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 6:37a “All that the Father gives me will come to me”

I have chosen to let God be God. I do not understand Tsunamis, Rape, Molestation, and every other evil we can list. And I agree that God is grieved over sin, and even creation longs for the day when God makes all things new! But I also do not believe that blanketly saying “God is not in control” is a Biblically-supported answer.

Jesus’s death was planned for US. This is the bottom line. God used the evil of the world to accomplish something on our behalf. God is FOR us. Before we asked Jesus to be Lord of our lives, we weren’t free. We were slaves to sin. Now, with the forgivenss of Jesus that came from a horrible, planned circumstance, we are no longer slaves to sin. We are co-heirs with Christ. What a blessing!

I long for Revelation 21 to come to pass…

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

Becky said...

Now the topic of abortion. Clint, I’d like to address some of the questions and statements you used to support your theory that a baby is not a human until the 2nd trimester. You asked, “if you scratch a flake of skin, is that murder?” Will a skin cell ever become a human life? No. Will a fertilized egg become a human life if not destroyed? Yes. Therefore, your argument is not logical. It is not an equal comparison. Plucking a feather from a bird is not the same as stepping on a fertilized egg.

Also, you mentioned that a miscarriage at 6 weeks was much harder emotionally than a miscarriage at 20 weeks. Having lost a baby myself, I’m sorry for your loss. However, we could also say that losing a child at the age of 4 is much harder than if the child were 1. Loosing a 15 year old is more difficult than loosing a 6 month old. No one would say, however, that the 6 month old was less of a human than the 15 year old. They were both equally human, regardless of the sadness involved. A homeless man who dies with no relatives or friends, no one to mourn him or grieve, was just as much of a human as a mother of three who was actively involved in her community. This train of thought to decide that a first trimester baby is not a human is also not a logical answer.

In the end, it doesn’t matter when WE decide a baby is human. Since God is the one who declared that murder is wrong to begin with, it makes the most sense to find out when He believes life begins. I don’t see any Biblical Evidence whatsoever to support your view that a 12 week old baby is more of a human in the womb than an 11 week, 5 day old baby. On the contrary, I see that He has planned our lives even while we are in the womb.

Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers? (Job 31:15).

Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God (Psalm 22:9-10).

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be (Psalm 139:13-16).

This is what the LORD says—he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you...(Isaiah 44:2).

Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth. Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you (Isaiah 46:3-4).

And now the LORD says—he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength (Isaiah 49:5).

The word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations" (Jeremiah 1:4-5).

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy" (Luke 1:41-42, 44).

Therefore, I believe the evidence is on your shoulders to prove otherwise.

You also asked, “are fertilized, frozen embryos babies?” Yes, they are. I also support organizations like “Snowflake Adoptions.”

Further: Medically a person is no longer alive when their heart has stopped beating. Though I don’t agree with it, if you used this same criteria to decide when a person becomes alive, it happens at 5 weeks, before most women even know they are pregnant, well before the 2 trimester begins.

In conclusion: A baby is a baby from conception. There is no Biblical basis for anything else that can declare a specific time when it magically becomes a human. Since murder is wrong, regardless of race, age, & ethnicity, then murder of an unborn baby (even if the baby wouldn’t know it was being murdered) is also wrong. Denying a baby of life simply because someone decided his or her life would not be worth living is ludicrous. That is like saying, rather than taking children out of sexually abusive homes, we should kill them to spare them the horrors and baggage they will have to deal with as they grow up and work past this.

Banning abortion will not stop child abuse and all the other horrors of our sinful world. But allowing abortion won’t stop them either. Two wrongs will not make anything right.

REM said...

Well said, Becky.

Lindsay,
Please consider David's census in 2 Samuel 24. God is in control of the havoc that isn't his fault. He needs no rescue from this.

Lindsay said...

Ecclesiastes 3 tells us there is "a time to tear down and a time to build, a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

The greatest commandment is to love God. The second is to love your neighbor as yourself. But what does "loving" your neighbor really mean? Are you loving your neighbor if you don't confront them when they are sinning, hurting themselves, and blaspheming the name of the LORD? Or are you just holding their hand on their way to hell?

"Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good." Romans 12:9

“Better is open rebuke, than love that is concealed.” - Proverbs 27:5


I'll get to ryan's comment later....first I'll see if this one gets through the gag order.

Becky said...

It doesn't say "There is a time to be rude." In fact, it says "love is not rude." And we both know there's a difference between "Speaking the truth in love" and being rude.

REM said...

Lindsay,

Note 1 Chronicles 21:1 as you read II Samuel 24, and you will see how the LORD also involved Satan in the census. This whole situation is difficult for us because we cannot duplicate it on a human scale, or even understood it entirely from our perspective. Do not assume that because situations are impossible or entirely sinful for us that God cannot accomplish them with ease and remain holy.

I certainly hope this scripture is not a backward idea that is a twisted & superstitious thinking to you.

REM said...

Lindsay, I am not sure where we are having this discussion, so I am posting at both blogs:

1. My comment, which avoided namecalling, questioned your thinking as it pertained to II Samuel 24. I “certainly hoped” you thought likewise. You don’t. Not offending you to get to this remained unavoidable.

(Ironically and regretfully, I copied “superstitious and twisted” from your previous post. FFR, don’t introduce words that undoubtedly will cause you injury upon repetition.)

Please resolve it with Becky if you have further objections about her comment moderation. It was never in my hands.

2. “Your comparing Becky's belief that God plans rape to a census?!”

70,000 Israelites dying as a result of that census (II Samuel 24:15) is no picnic.

3. “God created us with ability to choose right from wrong, He did not create robotic droids who are incapable of freewill just so He can forcefully make us love and obey Him and receive artificial glory in the process. That is twisted and superstitious.”

“Robotic droids” and “forcefully make us love” reak of fatalism. I agree this presentation of God is twisted/superstitious, because it is unscriptural and also light years apart from Calvinism.

3. “He certainly doesn't dictate every single vile and wicked act a person does.”

It’s no cakewalk to grapple with but scripture teaches God does. (Psalm 76:10, Proverbs 16:4, Isaiah 45:7)

4. On the Jeremiah passages: A thought entering a mind is not the same thing for God as it is for you. God’s thought processes along with actual knowledge of perverse thoughts are poles apart from your experience with them. I fear you read human weaknesses/constraints into scripture and now apply your attributes to God. Don’t forget Isaiah 55:8.

(In addition to God’s mind, his arm (Isaiah 52:10) and eyes (2 Chronicles 16:9) also don’t operate in the same inflexible form, function and context as your own.)

5. “Back to your example of David's census, if it was all planned and orchestrated by God, then why did David repent? God planned for him to do it, why would he need to repent? In fact, why do any of us?”

Finite men make decisions but God determines outcomes is my answer for all three. Again, I think you are trashing fatalism and guessing it was Calvinism.

6. “You don’t really care about what I think, you only care about defending your position.”

If it brings comfort to prove this ever true shred of human commonality, have at it.

7. I have read some Augustine, and see some flaws. However, I reject OVer’s understanding that Augustine used words pagans misapplied therefore causing an odd scoliosis in Christendom for 1600 years. OVer’s need to move beyond this sloppy connect-the-dots method of incriminating Augustine for the wrong stuff. ICYC, he is not my hero.

8. I read Enyart’s debate awhile back. He acquired dirty tricks from atheists over the years. His misleading details, guilt by association and his phantom interview was disappointing. He’s a better debater than theologian. It’s sad because he’s a gifted man.

9. Not sure it matters, but I am the best sinner I know and I apologize for whatever rudeness I conveyed to you and your family.

10. Since we’re getting nowhere, I’d rather grant your wish to end this exchange than further engage your lack of desire for it. Honest discussion is now more exercise than it ever should be here. Read your Bible and I will pray for you guys.